Born and raised Canadian, Mum was actually using the conventional English language system of naming family relationships as illustrated by this table of consanguinity:
This system for naming family relationships does contain a significant logical flaw that gives certain non-reciprocal relationships the illusion of being reciprocal (the only possible truly reciprocal family relationships are those among generational contemporaries). One of the most important bits of knowledge we all seek when encountering a relative previously not known to us is whether that relative may be generationally contemporary with us or generationally senior or junior to us. The logical flaw in the English language's conventional system of naming family relationships hides that latter piece of vital information. Consider yourself attending a family reunion at which a centenarian (three generation senior to you) reminisces to a mother holding a newborn baby (three generations junior to you). Very possibly, by this table, that centenarian and that newborn babe-in-arms would both be your first cousin thrice removed, an obvious absurdity. Similarly, if a distant relative previously not known to you comes up to you and announces, "I am your second cousin twice removed," you have no way of knowing which one of you is the junior relative and which the senior relative without the two of you actually tracing your family tree. This results from giving some non-reciprocal relatives who are generationally senior to oneself and other non-reciprocal relatives who are generationally junior to oneself the same relationship name (red) while other non-reciprocal junior and senior relatives are distinguished by differing relationship names (green), as pointed out in this highlighted table of consanguinity:
Dad's contention as to how extended family relationships should be named derived from his experience growing up in Wales before migrating to Canada. In fact, he argued that the naming of relationships beyond those of close family members had been invented in Wales. Whether that last is actually true, I do not know. When I attempt to reconstruct what I think Dad intended to describe in a table of consanguinity, I find a far more logical system for naming family relationships:
Thus, I tend to side with Dad in this family pet disagreement and wish that the Welsh table of consanguinity could be conventional.
I usually identify my relatives if my age as 'cousins'. If they are older than me and are 2nd or 3rd cousins, I called them aunt or uncle. My FTM identifies our relationship and I only use that if someone wants to know exactly what our connection is.
ReplyDeleteThanks Brenda,
DeleteI hope others will offer further comments.
Yes, there are 2 problems with the English language terminology “cousin removed.” First, it is the only cross-generational relationship which doesn’t specify whether it’s an older generation or a younger one. That problem is solved by adding “ascending” if it’s older, “descending” if it’s younger. Clumsy, but it does work.
ReplyDeleteThe other problem is that it sounds like it’s your cousin, when it’s not…it’s somebody else’s cousin…your parent’s (once removed), your grandparent’s (twice removed) etc. Or else you are the cousin to one of their ancestors. The system as you remember from your father takes care of both these problems.
Interestingly enough, this is also the way the Spanish language deals with relationship between 2 people, where one is the cousin of the other’s parent…ascending is second uncle (tio segundo) or second aunt (tia segunda)…descending is second nephew (sobrino segundo) or second niece (sobrina segunda).
I do see one mistake in your diagram however. You say grand nephew followed by great grand nephew, which is correct. But then you have great uncle followed by great grand uncle…great uncle should be grand uncle.
Thank you, travelling cyst,
DeleteYou comment is really helpful. I do wish someone would explain the oh so obvious and confusion generating logical flaw. I had never heard of using that "Ascending/Descending" modifier; none of the typical charts I have seen show it. Your mention of the mistake can serve to correct it.
I like your mention of the Spanish naming of extended family relationships. I had heard that the logical flaw does not exist with other languages but had not actually seen examples. This certainly reinforces my argument and I thank you.
DeleteIt is difficult to work it out from the table, I agree, but once you know what a 1st cousin once removed etc. is, then it is really quite simple. I know of people that if it is a 1st cousin once removed on the senior side just call them aunt or uncle, and if it's on the junior side they call them 2nd cousins, but obviously this is not genealogically correct. In the UK we don't use the term "grand" when it comes to aunts and uncles, only with grandparents.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Sarah. To my mind the junior side and the senior side of any relationship is logically significant and the "removed" relationship naming, however conventional, hides that significance.
DeleteWdan5 responded elsewhere with,
ReplyDelete"I see your point but let me suggest that the Welsh system probably comes from the different history of Wales before Edward I’s conquest. The Welsh used to divide their property amongst all the sons equally and family relationships were differently defined/labeled because they had different purposes for each person in the extended family such as fostering. The English (or Anglo-American system if you prefer) had adopted an inheritance system that tried to keep an estate intact through the generations and they went with male primogeniture generally.
"You argue the Welsh system makes more sense because it allows you to distinguish between the centenarian and the newborn at the family reunion who are both your 1st cousin twice removed and their relative ages make that ridiculous. Well in one sense yes, but don’t get caught up in the two different meanings of generation. There is the genealogy definition of levels or waves of offspring regardless of actual ages and the cultural definition of the person belonging to a group of people born in the same time period. I think that last is called a cadre. I don’t have a problem with my nth cousin being a great deal older or younger than me because I might be descended from the last born ancestor and my line all had their children later in life while the relative came from the firstborn ancestor and their line always had births in their teens."